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Permalink Reply by J.R. Seyfert on October 28, 2009 at 10:47am

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Permalink Reply by Jay Sicht on October 31, 2009 at 10:28pm

J.R., although I can't speak for all manufacturers' products, I do know something about Sikkens' car refinishes as a representative of a Sikkens wholesale distributor.
And, by using the Sikkens Autowave waterborne base coat and clears specific to that basecoat, the VOCs are cut more than in half.

A quick look at readily available information on applied VOCs shows that Sikkens Autobase Plus (solventborne) base coat is at 6.2 to 6.4 lbs./gal. (depending on reduction ratio), and the two most commonly used clears, Autoclear III or Autoclear HS+, have an applied VOC of 4.1 lbs/gal.

Autowave base coat has an applied VOC of 3.3 lbs./gal, or roughly half of the VOCs of the latest Autobase Plus solventborne system.
The Autoclear Superior 250 clearcoat--which in addition to allowing a glass-smooth appearance off the gun if desired, has an applied VOC of 2 lbs./gal. The new Autoclear HS+LV has an applied VOC of only 1.8 lbs/gal.

Undercoats remain solventborne, although in my opinion that may change in the next few years.

I'm sure with a little searching, you can find the VOC figures for your current paint system and the waterborne one that will replace it.

Overall, the Autowave waterborne product (which has been proven in Europe for the past 15 years, so it's not really new) has shown to provide better color matches (more and more OE car finishes are now waterborne), ease of blendability, and being able to apply fewer coats.
In some instances, some new equipment such as air movers may be necessary. If you have oil and/or water in your lines currently, you may get away with it with solventborne. Oil and water don't mix, so obviously that's a big problem with waterborne.
Your Sikkens (or other paint brand) representative can help you audit your shop to see what upgrades (if any) may be necessary.

Do distributors and factory reps play up the benefits of waterborne to sell a prospect? Sure we/they do. Why wouldn't we/they talk about something so new that everyone's at least heard about? And if your shop is thinking of changing to a new brand/distributor/system anyway, why not go ahead and make the jump to waterborne, if it does make sense for your shop?

Change never comes easy, and I'm sure each generation of auto painters has resisted the evolution of paint systems. But the(solvent) basecoat/clearcoat system we take for granted today as the status quo was at one time foreign to painters accustomed to working with acrylic lacquers and acrylic enamels.

There will be a bit of a learning curve as we transition to waterborne, but I'm sure it will become the standard within the next decade. Read up on it. Ask your distributor to prove to you why it's such a good thing. You may just be surprised.

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Permalink Reply by J.R. Seyfert on November 3, 2009 at 8:32am

Great I use Lessonal. But Half? Really, is that what we are looking for? I say keep it the same if you can't make a real difference. Waterborne sounds good to the tree huggers,but in actuall use, it only brings home half of the bacon.
I am already sold on Sikkens! This is exactly what I am talking about,look at all those new products to sell,distribute,and profit from. Just what I said, always a sale.
See this is the way it is. The paint distributers tell us the consumer what we are gonna get, and we are gonna like it, or else."Change isn't always easy",this implies that the decision has been made,and it is a matter of time before everyone will have to change.
Bull Crap! All of you shop owners have a voice and if you use it together then maybe you will be heard. I can't tell you that they will listen,but I can tell what to expect if you stand by and do nothing. Imagine your shop shut down for two days just to set up the new system. Oh,Yeah, you gotta train anyone who will use it.Darn it i forgot,Who is gonna pay for all this? You and I both know who will! The same guy that buys the paint in the first place.

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Permalink Reply by Jay Sicht on November 5, 2009 at 6:42pm

J.R., I can see you've already made up your mind about this issue, regardless of waterborne's merits. By the way, since you use Lesonal, I will tell you that there will be a new waterborne Lesonal product, too, called WB. And, yes, just as lacquer is pretty much a thing of the past except for certain restorations, I believe it IS a matter of time before everyone will move to waterborne. It may be five years; it may be 10 years. But it's a matter of time.
And if you're still skeptical, look at how house paint has gone. Today's acrylic latex (waterborne) is much more durable and flexible than oil-base (solvent-borne) paint, which is quickly becoming a thing of the past.

And, I'd have to disagree with you that cutting the nasties in half is not true progress.
If you don't think half of something is significant, I'd gladly take half of your salary! :)
And as time goes on, chemists will find a way to reduce that figure even further.

With regard to cost, shops who watch and track their usage generally report a savings in what it costs to deliver the car. The product costs a little more "in the can," but less product is used.

You may be interested in reading an article written by Mark Clark in BodyShop Business. He wrote better than I could on the "issue" of waterborne coming.
You can read it at: http://www.bodyshopbusiness.com/Article/38902/flow_back_in_time.aspx

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Permalink Reply by J.R. Seyfert on November 6, 2009 at 10:06am

My mind is not made up. I would agree that it is a matter of time,but, so is global warming of cooling. Half the nasties is an insult to the chemists. It has already been done just not released.
Until it is called water based,not water borne,I will still have a problem. I just want them to take the time to do it all,and do it right the first time.
You sell paint for cars,or houses? You are the first paint rep. that i have ever heard compare house paint to car paint. Are the techs that apply the house paint certified? You see the problem. Apples and oranges.

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Permalink Reply by Sheila on November 9, 2009 at 12:48pm

I am one of the biggest tree huggers(and vegan) out there. Managing a body shop seems quite at odds with that sometimes.

As far as waterborne goes I can't see the value at this point. I want primer, sealer, base and clear to be water based. otherwise I do agree it seems more about "looking" green than really being green. The tree hugger in me is disappointed that only base is out there right now. If this stuff has been in use in Europe for 15+ years why are we still using solvents in anything.

Then I think about how these bottled water companies come along and rape the land with there production facilities and I start to wonder how much damage the production of these H20 auto painting products are causing compared to the savings claimed in the spray booth. Are they dumping more chemicals in the ground and sucking up our drinking water supplies?

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Permalink Reply by Leon Bousquet on December 9, 2009 at 12:48pm

J.R. sounds like you have an axe to grind, so you will not like my response, but here it is. We have had waterborne base in 9 shops for over a year. 70% of the solvent, in a paint job, comes from the base. Think about it, your Clear is 4 to 1,(no reducer) your primer is 4 to 1, ( no reducer), this stuff is thick. Your base is
1 to 1 or maybe 2 to1, half solvent. As far as Waterborne clear, I can tell you that it will be out in 2010. I do not know what you are referring to when you say acylic paint, are you talking about lacquer?

The water works great, not one shop I have would go back to solvent. It is the next better thing, like fuel injection over carburation, I do not miss my hand choke. Have you tried it? If you did I think you would have a different opinion. By the way, not all waters are the same. Some companies use a fair amount of solvent in their water, I know of one that does not. Keep an open mind, try it before you slam it. The OTC has passed the regulation for Viginia north to Maine to use lower VOC by Jan 1, 2012. Do your homework when choosing a water system and you will not be unhappy.

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Permalink Reply by Sheila on December 21, 2009 at 12:23pm

Leon,

"70% of the solvent, in a paint job, comes from the base." Can you provide me with some documentation on that. It's very interesting.

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Permalink Reply by Bill Terry on December 22, 2009 at 10:26am

This is JR, I am using a different computer.
You have missed my point all together. Either make it water based, or not at all. You think about it. All I am saying is "they" could do more to make it actually waterbased instead of waterbourne.
Ok, so now for the base thing. My primer uses reducer,"they" just renamed it as "activator",and my clear uses a 4:1:1 ratio of clear,to hardener,to REDUCER! I agree with you that the base IS full of solvent,and made that point in my initial statement. But I will make it again. The focus of V.O.C measurement is on clear,and no one really worries about that. Its the clear thats bad,according to "them".
I don't have an axe to grind with the idea of waterbased paint. I have a problem that it is fake. When I buy waterbased paints of my house I rinse the brush out with warm water. Can you do that with yours? Oh,thats right,you have to buy a special thinner for it. What happens to the waste thinner? I recycle mine for clean up. Can you do that with yours? Oh yeah, it evaporates. All I want is for "them" to actually apply "themselves" to make it a real waterbased product,to help our gluttonous selves try to stop killing our planet. We are all born with bad habbits. It is our choice.

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Permalink Reply by Thom Tipul on December 30, 2009 at 8:10pm

We have many shops in the Columbus Ohio area using PPG's Envirobase and not one has ever switched back to any solvent base product. Blending, metallic control, color match, ease of use, non agitating mixing system, not to mention marketing, environmental and health benefits are the reasons why many shops are looking to use these products.

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Permalink Reply by J.R. Seyfert on December 31, 2009 at 11:53am

Many shops can not get enough airflow in their booths to get a fast enough dry time, without getting a ton of trash. I havnt even got into the shelf life issue. The mix banks are all small because of short shelf life,so even the smallest job may have to wait on a toner. We all know what this adds up to. Argue all you want. The point of this disscussion was to point out the fact that there are hundreds of salesman with thousands of new products that are "greener" but are still at best only half water. So it is easy to see that in another 5-10 years we all will be having to do all this over again. When "they" release full Water-Based automotive paint systems.

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